Trainers...

Discussion in 'Training' started by d0n, Nov 5, 2015.

  1. d0n

    d0n Moderator
    Moderator Dirt Racing

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    DC Rainmakers List:

    http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/2015-2016trainer-recommendations.html



    BUDGET TRAINERS (SUB-$350):
    This category has historically been for non-electronically controlled trainers. Basically trainers that you can’t control via electronics, but might be able to control via a lever or just from fluid resistance. This year though that’s changed. Prices have dropped and now there’s some legit options in here that do have control components.

    Elite Qubo Digital Smart B+:

    [​IMG]

    This was the last trainer I was waiting on, and the reason this list was delayed. The Qubo Digital Smart B+ is the least expensive automatic resistance controlled trainer on the market. In the US it’s in the $249-$329 range (depends on retailers), and in Europe it’s about 329EUR (so at that price you might consider the Tacx Vortex Smart instead). But again, seems to vary a bit. Anyway, for the resistance control that means that this trainer can be controlled by apps and automatically adjust the resistance if you were going up a hill, or for pre-programmed intervals. Though, when doing vast shifts in power (i.e. 100w to 450w, it’s a bit slower to change than some trainers that cost $500 more, about 1s per 50w of power shift). Again, tradeoffs.

    This trainer supports the ANT+ FE-C standard, which means that a wide variety of apps can control it via ANT+. On the Bluetooth Smart side, it’s basically the same as Tacx whereby Elite has released/announced support for 3rd party developers and some are already working on Bluetooth Smart support (TrainerRoad & Kinomap). For now though the major apps like Zwift, TrainerRoad and Kinomap can already control it via ANT+. Plus their own app, which can be used via Bluetooth Smart too. One other minor caveat is that the Elite trainer line doesn’t broadcast your power/speed/cadence over standard ANT+ channels (so your Garmin can pick it up). But it does do Bluetooth Smart, and also does ANT+ FE-C, it can at least control it and record it.

    The trainer has a nice quick-release system making it super quick and easy to plop the bike in, plus, no need to use the swirly knob to tighten it down as it uses your own body weight to press the trainer onto the roller. That does though have the disadvantage of being slightly less accurate for power data if you lean forward on your bike (triathlon bike for example), though it’s spot-on when your weight is shifted back. But for the price, it’s not a horrible compromise.

    Tacx Satori Smart (Euro Pricing Only):

    [​IMG]

    This is the least expensive ‘Smart’ branded trainer from Tacx. Their ‘Smart’ trainer lineup broadcasts your power/speed/cadence over ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart. It does NOT have ANT+ FE-C control though because it doesn’t have automated control. Instead, you have a little lever connected via cable. But otherwise it’ll give you your power and other metrics and let you connect your Garmin, Polar, or other App to read it. Accuracy-wise it’s fairly good once you’ve done calibration on it using the procedure in the app.

    Now, you’ll notice the caveat about being Euro pricing only. That’s because this is an example where the US pricing is way more expensive than the European pricing. It just doesn’t make sense to buy this trainer in the US given that disparity.

    $100-$200 Trainers:

    This is a tough category, because there are so many entrants here and I’ve only used a few. And quite frankly, they’re all pretty similar.

    My general recommendation is to check out the Travel Trac Magnetic Trainers that Performance Bike offers (these are also branded under various other names worldwide). The key thing is that you want to ensure it can handle an appropriate amount of watts. For that I’d swag 300w for those just getting into the sport, but probably more like 400-500w if you’ve got a bit more strength. If you’re on the pointy end already, then you’ll already know your max wattage and already know you probably need more.

    The most important thing is ensuring that it meets some of the characteristics that I talked about earlier in the post on things to look at (materials, build, stability, lever for control, etc…).

    Finally, if you’re spending more than $200 in this category, you should really be looking at other automated resistance options. About the only reason to spend more and get less is if you’re trying to get a trainer that supports a very high level of resistance (i.e. 1,000w), which some of the lower end trainers will fail at providing.

    Sub-$100 Trainers:

    In the past I’ve recommended ‘Little Red’, and that was a great option at about $79-$89 on sale at Performance Bike (Tip of the day: Performance Bike has sales basically every other week for their house-branded items, so if it’s not on sale this week, it probably will be next week. This isn’t applicable to non-house branded trainers).

    The problem is Little Red went away. Instead, they’ve introduced another – the Blackburn Mag 1 Trainer for roughly the same price. In looking at the specs, the main difference between this and the one in the category above is the resistance control. As of today, the price difference is only $10, so honestly I’d go with the Travel Trac Mag+ at $99, but if not on sale, then it’s harder to justify.

    One thing to keep in mind is that trainers in this category tend to have a max wattage of about 300 watts. Again, for most people just getting into the sport, 300w isn’t too bad. But it’s something to be mindful of if you plan to do intervals harder than that. Either way, for $80-$90, these are great deals.

    MID-RANGE TRAINERS ($350-$1,000):
    While this is a vast price range, it’s actually fairly easy to pick a winner here. There’s only one unit that has everything, and does so at a price halfway in the middle.

    Tacx Vortex Smart:

    [​IMG]

    The Tacx Vortex Smart is a fully ANT+ FE-C capable trainer that allows you to control resistance via automation and applications. It also transmits both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart Speed/Power/Cadence over all the normal protocols, so basically any device and app on the market can pick it up. In the US it’s priced at $629, and in Europe I’m seeing it in the low 300EUR’s. That makes it $220 cheaper than the KICKR SNAP in the US, or a mind-boggling 550EUR+ cheaper. Damn!

    Accuracy-wise once calibrated it’s quite accurate, though getting it setup the first time for your bike can be a bit finicky with the way the press-on lever works. But once that’s done – you’re good to go from there on out (future rides).

    While 3rd party apps can control the trainer via ANT+, Tacx only recently opened 3rd party Bluetooth Smart control to the Smart trainer lineup – so apps are still rolling out support there. But all the big ones (Kinomap, Zwift, TrainerRoad, etc…) already support ANT+ FE-C, so it’s not really too much of an issue.

    Finally, for those trying to figure out the difference between the Vortex Smart and the Bushido Smart, the Bushido doesn’t require power from an outlet. The Vortex does. I just don’t see that being worth $300 for most people. Or heck, even $50 unless you train outside on a trainer a lot such as at a race start.

    If you’re looking for a mid-range trainer – the Vortex Smart is it. Oh, and just make sure it’s got the ‘Smart’ label, and isn’t the older non-Smart Vortex.

    HIGH-END TRAINERS:
    [​IMG]

    The high end has seen a slight addition here – but not a major change. Over the last two years, I’ve recommended the Wahoo KICKR, and that’s no different this year. But I’m also giving the nod to the Tacx NEO in certain situations. More on that in a second.

    Wahoo KICKR:

    [​IMG]

    Once again the KICKR tops the list, for two key reasons: App compatibility & price point. On the app side there is no trainer that’s compatible with more apps than the KICKR. Some 20+ apps at last count that can control the device. When it comes to trainer apps, you want more choice – not less. Next, on the price side it’s at $1,099/$1,199 depending on which cassette you have it shipped with (or 1,299EUR). This is a key point that I think some might miss on the NEO or Elite Turbo Muin, in that for both of those you have to buy a new cassette for it ($50-$100). Further, you have to buy the tools to install that cassette on it (or, get your local bike shop to do it for you).

    Some users have over the last year or so noted oddities in power accuracy, which vaguely seem to be related to when units were produced. Though, Wahoo says they’ve now hired a person who’s entire job in life is accuracy testing of trainers. Wahoo also released a series of firmware updates since, which target both accuracy as well as the ability to have your trainer match your existing power number.

    Now the one downside of the KICKR is that it’s not silent. It’s roughly the same in decibels as other trainers, though some describe it as a slightly higher pitched sound (I’d agree). Not that it really matters too much, it’s still in that ballpark.

    Ultimately, if I’m going to recommend a $1,000+ trainer, it’s going to be the KICKR. Its ability to integrate with virtually everything (and FE-C coming later this month), and still broadcast power and speed on both ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart is clutch.

    Tacx NEO:

    [​IMG]

    This is new this year (both to the market, and my list). The NEO’s claim to fame is its noise properties. Or rather, lack thereof. It aims to be the quietest trainer on the market. And I’d agree – I don’t know of anything that’s more silent than this. That’s all while having ANT+ FE-C compatibility, as well as ANT+ transmission of power/speed/cadence to any capable device. And finally, Bluetooth Smart control as well.

    Now, there does seem to be some teething and/or quality control issues on early produced units, resulting in odd sounds. I can’t well tell if this is 5-6 people (out of thousands of units shipped), or more. But Tacx does seem involved and working closely with folks seeing those issues, so hopefully it’s just getting the kinks worked out. If I see expansion of this over the next weeks, I’ll note it – but I don’t expect to see this be any sort of systematic issue as more just a initial batch working its way out. I also think there’s probably a bit of expectation setting in cases where people’s shifting/drivetrains are louder than they realize. Your bike is still going to make some noise, noise which has nothing to do with the trainer.

    The NEO is more expensive than the KICKR, at $1,699US. For Europeans, this NEO is much closer in price to the KICKR, only 100EUR difference at 1,299EUR + the cost of a cassette (about 50-100EUR). So that’s something to heavily consider.

    In my opinion, the primary reason you’d get the NEO over the KICKR is that you want near-silence. And in my experience – it does deliver on that quite well. There’s also a slight gap right now on the Bluetooth Smart control side for 3rd party apps (notable for iPhones/iPads that can’t do ANT+). Tacx released access for developers to control all Tacx Smart trainers via Bluetooth Smart the last week of September, so we’re still seeing some apps get that all baked in. I expect that to settle out by December though – thus putting them on the virtually same app playing field as Wahoo.

    THE WHY I DIDN’T INCLUDE IT LIST:
    First and foremast, this isn’t a list of bad trainers. If you take that away from this paragraph, then you’re mistaken. Instead, it’s just to save me time answering the same question 482 times below for each trainer as to why I didn’t include them. I’m keeping these explanations short and sweet. In many cases I’ve detailed out longer answers in posts related to those products.

    Wahoo KICKR Snap: Great product, great app compatibility, but overpriced compared to Tacx Vortex Smart, especially once any remaining apps out there implement BLE control on Tacx.

    CompuTrainer: Solid physical product (build/accuracy), horrible software, overpriced compared to KICKR (or even NEO). Just outdated. But, if you can get a used one on eBay for about $600, that’s a good deal. I wouldn’t pay any more than that.

    Elite Real Turbo Muin B+: While one of the first ‘quiet’ trainers, there’s some minor quirks that cause loss of top spot. Notably lack of broadcasting over standard ANT+ (but does support FE-C for control), also slightly slow response of resistance (can only change/shift 40-50w per 1-second). Given it’s priced similarly to KICKR/NEO, just little reason to buy it.

    LeMond Revolution Pro: The company has folded and ceased operations too many times in such a short time. While it was a good (albeit crazy loud) product, from a consumer standpoint it just doesn’t make sense. Plus, technically speaking the Wattbox isn’t up to par with many other solutions on other trainers today.

    PowerBeam Pro & PowerSync: While technically a very capable trainer, it lacks the ability to do dual ANT+/BLE. For that singular reason, it doesn’t make the list. Otherwise, it probably would. In such a shifting landscape of apps, you don’t want to be locked in on one protocol or the other. I’m only recommending purchasing trainers that are dual-capable.

    Tacx Genius Smart: This trainer is different from the other Tacx units in that it can actually spin the wheel by itself, thus simulating downhill sections. While fun for a ride or two, I don’t find it worth the extra money.

    Kurt Kinetic Trainers: While in the past I’ve recommended these (Road Machine especially), their new pricing model this year just isn’t logical. They’re no doubt great trainers (but not smart trainers, despite the new branding otherwise), but increasing the price on something that has less technology than ones half its price just isn’t sustainable, or something I can recommend.

    BKOOL Trainers: Again, another perfectly capable trainer – but just doens’t make sense pricing wise. It’s basically the same price as the Tacx Vortex, but unlike the Vortex it doesn’t broadcast on Bluetooth Smart. Nor does it broadcast ANT+ Power/Speed/Cadence. It does support ANT+ FE-C though.
     
  2. Mugochap

    Mugochap Dirt Racing
    Dirt Racing

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    I have the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine and I really like it. It pairs very well with Trainer Road. I got it shipped to my house for $312... just have to find the right deals.
     
  3. yz400e

    yz400e Registered

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    Anyone have a photo of a bike on the Wahoo kicker ? how high above the floor does the bottom of the rear wheel sit ? can it be dropped down to 1" or so ?
     
  4. RunkieCanuck

    RunkieCanuck Dirt Racing
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    Not sure if you're aware that the rear wheel on the standard kickr is direct mount, though they do have a new version where you can keep the wheel on. I personally prefer the former for consistency and tire wear.

    Pics of my rig...
     

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  5. yz400e

    yz400e Registered

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    No, I guess I didn't. or if I did I had forgotten about it. It looks like you can set the height of the axle to be the same as when the bike is on the ground. That is a nice low 'riser block' under the front wheel.

    I see many trainers where the rear wheel is 3" off the ground. makes the bike unsteady and more difficult to raise the front end. My 1upUSA has finally exhausted my patience. I really like how low to the ground and stable it is but the resistance unit now needs constant maintenance. There is still plenty of 'braking surface' left and there aren't any grooves in the surfaces but I have to pull the platter and wipe the dust off the contact surfaces after every ride or it HOWLS. CAn't take it any more. It is also getting really 'grabby'. I went through several different lightweight greases so the platter would slide smooth until I found one that worked. 'nuff rant. finally looking for a better trainer and should get one that would let me train smarter.
     
  6. jek007

    jek007 Dirt Racing
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    They sell risers to offset it and stabilize bikes on trainers...
     
  7. DoubleHaul

    DoubleHaul Registered

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    Are you using the inride adapter with that? I'm seeing them bundled for about that price on ebay. I'm not sure I need the adapter for golden cheetah usage - pretty sure that just works off virtual power w/ ant+ cadence/speed sensor.

    I woke up to an oil puddle under my turbo this morning :( On the plus side I now know what I need for Christmas.
     
  8. Mugochap

    Mugochap Dirt Racing
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    Nope, I just have the trainer... vitrual power just needs cadence/wheel sensor. Make sure to keep your tire pressure the same for every ride to keep the power readings consistent.
     
  9. RunkieCanuck

    RunkieCanuck Dirt Racing
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    Go big or go home! Get the kickr or the like, tire off option, and all of these headaches go away. Worth every penny in my opinion...especially if you plan on using it 2 or more times a week.
     
  10. DoubleHaul

    DoubleHaul Registered

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    The kickr sounds great, but costs more than I paid for my road bike new (or mtb used). I'm rolling on a 2kg stock Axis 1.0 wheelset and don't know any better, but eventually hope to build a new rear wheel so I don't have to swap tires like you're saying. I don't have a powermeter yet, but have been "enjoying" training to virtual power on the cycleops fluid that I go for free. Granted my performance seems to have dropped off through the second half of cx season, so maybe I'm not doing something quite right (honestly think racing Wednesday nights has been messing up my plan - just doesn't fit well into my schedule).

    It seems like for less than half the price of a kickr I could get a real powermeter and scrounge a cheap used trainer to go with it (I've got a Cycleops mag on loan right now). The difference between a stages (which I could swap between my road and cx) and a power2max ("full" power for whatever it's worth) is about $115 (both on FSA gossamers/energy). I'm not sure where to go there, or if to go there - may just stick w/ virtual power on this mag and buy a trainerroad subscription. FWIW I've been riding the trainer about 3 nights a week, trying to ride trails or race on the weekends.
     
  11. yz400e

    yz400e Registered

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    Really ? I never would have guessed. on the other hand, my Cycleops holds the rear wheel about 3" off the floor, the 1UPUSA holds it about 1/2 inch above the floor. I have a 6 " riser block I use for simulated climbing. I'd rather have a difference of 1" to 6" instead of 3" to 6".
     
  12. RunkieCanuck

    RunkieCanuck Dirt Racing
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    They are definitely pricey. Didn't consider the powermeter + trainer option but that could be a good path. I'm just not a fan of the tire on options; you have to keep all the variables just right for consistency in the output data (pressure, etc).
     
  13. yz400e

    yz400e Registered

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    I have been looking at the Tacx smart Vortex. Performance has it for $529 . I'm sure some sort of promotion will come up to drop the price into the mid $400 range plus the 10% credit. The Cyclops Silencer Direct Drive looked interesting but it doesn't broadcast any information and you can't control it.
     

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